In the News
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CER In The News: Radio Transcript
Producer: Alexis Kessler
LEARNING MATTERS, INC.
BILL CLINTON
We should make it possible for more parents and teachers to start charter schools. Schools that set and meet the highest standards and exist only as long as they do.
JOHN MERROW
Charter schools have a friend at the top.
BILL CLINTON
Our plan will help America to create three thousand of these charter schools by the next century.
(MUSIC)
JOHN MERROW
I'm John Merrow. On this edition of the Merrow Report, we're talking about charter schools, one of the fastest growing trends in public education. Are charter schools education's great hope? Mere hype? Or perhaps something in between. We'll be talking with guests JEANNE Allen, a political activist in Washington; Bruce Fuller, a professor who's done research on charter schools in California; and Joe Nathan, one of the founders of the charter school movement. We'll also hear from the principal of a charter school, and a reporter who's been following the story….
JOHN MERROW
I'm John Merrow. You're listening the Merrow Report. Ten years ago there were no charter schools. Today there are over twelve hundred of them, in 35 states and the District of Columbia. What are charter schools? They're independent public schools that are funded by the taxpayers but they're free from most government regulations. Charter schools can teach however and whatever they like, as long as they demonstrate that students are making academic progress. And if they can't, they'll be shut down. Because charter schools are flexible, just about everyone seems to like the idea. Right wing conservatives, who'd like to see the education monopoly deregulated. Progressive educators who want to create child centered schools. Christian fundamentalists. Civil rights groups who feel disenfranchised by the current system. All are creating charter schools of their own. The hope is that charter schools will be more innovative than traditional public schools. That they'll create competition and provide incentive for other schools to improve. But for all the hope and praise that charter schools have received, there are skeptics who say there's no proof that these schools are any better than regular public schools. That's why we're calling this hour: Charter schools ... Hope, Hype or something in between? Joining me today for a discussion of charter schools are Lynn Schnaiberg, a staff writer who's been covering charter schools for Education Week. Welcome to the program, Lynn.
LYNN SCHNAIBERG
Thanks for having me.
JOHN MERROW
Absolutely.
JOHN MERROW
JEANNE Allen, who's President of the Center for Education Reform. She joins us from NPR studios in Washington, DC. JEANNE, how have you been?
JEANNE ALLEN
Fine, thank you. Hi John.
JOHN MERROW
Glad you're here. Bruce Fuller is Associate Professor of Public Policy and Education at the University of California in Berkeley. He's the author of a forthcoming book from Harvard University Press called "Charter Schools and the Paradox of Radical Decentralization." He joins us from KPFA studios in Berkeley, California. Welcome to the program.
BRUCE FULLER
Hi John.
JOHN MERROW
And Joe Nathan is director of the center for school change at the Humphrey Institute in Minneapolis. He's the author of a book "Charter Schools Creating Hope and Opportunity for American Education." He joins us from KSJN studios in St. Paul. Hi Joe.
JOE NATHAN
Good afternoon, John.
JOHN MERROW
Nice to be here. Glad to hear your voice, glad your with us. We'll also be hearing from Irasema Salcido, who's the founding principal of the Cesar Chavez Public Charter High School for Public Policy in Washington, DC. She joins us on the telephone. Welcome to the program.
IRASEMA SALCIDO
Thank you Jonathan. An honor to be with you.
JOHN MERROW
Well, I'm glad you're here and I want to start with you.
IRASEMA SALCIDO
Good.
JOHN MERROW
Now you came from the public system. You were an assistant principal, and then you were principal for nine years. Why did you start a charter school?
IRASEMA SALCIDO
It was an opportunity for me that I just couldn't pass. In my mind I could envision seeing a group of people that would have the same vision. In my mind I would envision being able to create the best possible learning environment for students,, and in my mind I figured that if I can make the decisions on how to build that program, that quality program, how can I go wrong?
JOHN MERROW
Now you ...
IRASEMA SALCIDO
And that's what motivated me to sort of give this a try.
JOHN MERROW
Now this is your first year?
IRASEMA SALCIDO
That is correct. I open in September.
JOHN MERROW
Was it difficult to get the school started?
IRASEMA SALCIDO
Extremely difficult.
JOHN MERROW
What was, what was the biggest obstacle.
IRASEMA SALCIDO
Well, if any of you could imagine starting something from scratch, it's definitely a humongous task. The second is,, was finding a facility. You know, a lot of charter schools that is one of the biggest challenges. There was that and also wanting to build a culture of learning for the students that we were serving. As you know, by law we required to accept any student that comes to, to any of the DC charter schools. And I believe that's the law in most other states. So with getting those kids that have unfortunately have been under-served in being able to bring them up to a level where they can not only handle academic work but where they could take advantage of the learning environment that we offering them ... offering them and that's been and continues to be the challenge for us because unfortunately these kids have been under-served and it's a struggle. But, you know, we feel that with the quality program in place, the quality teachers, the support that we've gotten from the public policy communities that we are gonna make something happen for the kids. And because I was able to decide that I wanted to have a Monday through Saturday program. That I wanted to have tutors for each of my kids and that they would have to be here until seven o'clock.
JOHN MERROW
So, so you were able to set some rules?
IRASEMA SALCIDO
That's correct.
JOHN MERROW
In your charter?
IRASEMA SALCIDO
That is correct.
JOHN MERROW
How long is your charter?
IRASEMA SALCIDO
15 years.
JOHN MERROW
15 years.
IRASEMA SALCIDO
That is correct.
JOHN MERROW
What have you promised to do?
IRASEMA SALCIDO
Three things. I was asked to set goals in three areas. Academic achievement goals, non-academic achievement goals, and full performance goals. For my student academic achievement goals I have forwarded, they will gain high school competency. That they will improve this down from night scores. If they will attend four year colleges, that they will gain some public policy knowledge and skills. For my non academic student goals is basically that I would have high attendance rate. That the students that are with me each year, that the majority will return the next year. That I wouldn't feel on them, you know, their desire to improve their communities, and that's our goal.
JOHN MERROW
Wait a minute. Just the majority, you mean the 51 percent, and that would be okay?
IRASEMA SALCIDO
Well, right now we have as you know, one of the things I mentioned to you, that we have ... it's been challenging for us, is not knowing who our students were. I mean we were asked to do (Inaudible) accountability plan without knowing who our student population is. Now that we know who our student population is, our goal is to make sure that we measure progress year by year. However, in five years we're gonna have, you can say an audit, where we're gonna have to show some results. And at least for me and I believe for a lot of other people that open charter schools, what motivated us to do this is to know that we better produce results or else we're not gonna exist.
JOHN MERROW
Let ...
IRASEMA SALCIDO
I'm sorry.
JOHN MERROW
Are you working harder now than you had before?
IRASEMA SALCIDO
Yes, absolutely, because I'm able to ... I have control of what happens in my school. So I feel more accountable, and not just myself.
JOHN MERROW
What about your ...
IRASEMA SALCIDO
Excuse me?
JOHN MERROW
What about your teachers? Did you have a lot of say in the hiring teachers?
IRASEMA SALCIDO
Of course. I decided who was the, you know, who could come to my school. And, you know, obviously the goal is to find the most qualified teachers, whether they have certification of any state. I mean I, I was able to recruit outstanding people because of, of that flexibility. And that definitely helps a lot. If I can, you know, putting myself control those decisions then I better produce results.
JOHN MERROW
So you have teachers who want to be there?
IRASEMA SALCIDO
Exactly. And, and ...
JOHN MERROW
So union seniority rules did not get in the way?
IRASEMA SALCIDO
No. No. I'm a small school, I have only three teachers.
JOHN MERROW
And you have 60 students, 60 ninth graders this year.
IRASEMA SALCIDO
That is correct.
JOHN MERROW
And then next year you'll have more ninth graders, and they'll tenth and ninth grade.
IRASEMA SALCIDO
Exactly.
JOHN MERROW
Now, let me ... because we have some very knowledgeable people with us, let me wonder aloud if any of you want to ask a question of this principal. Let me ask you also if what she's promising makes sense, is consistent with what other, other charter schools are promising.
JOE NATHAN
This is Joe Nathan and I had a question. Could you say more about why you, like thousands of other teachers, have left the district controlled public school system to create a charter public school? Some studies find that, that after three to five years teachers are saying, as you've said, that they are working harder than they ever have before, that they have more satisfaction. Could you say a little bit about why for you personally it made more sense to work in a charter public school than in a more traditional and union controlled charter ... public school?
IRASEMA SALCIDO
Sure. And, and I guess it's not too difficult to figure out why. Obviously no ... everyone would agree that the bureaucracy that we have to deal with in any big school system. I mean, not being able to order the books that you want to order. Pretty much not being able to hire people that you want will be good for your program. They have to go through, you know, central office or go through all this. And you have to wait. If your, you know, toilet breaks, I mean unless, you know, you're waiting for someone to send maintenance to come and fix it and, you know, it's ... sometimes it's just very unpredictable. You don't know who the next superintendent might support or not support some of your programs. There's just a lot of ... things don't move fast enough. I mean I'm the kind of person that likes to make things happen. And I remember even I was at one of the best schools in my opinion, here in the district, the Belmar Cultural High School. But even then I would get all excited about things, but then I will go back and try to motivate the teachers. And it was just so hard because some teachers, you know, obviously didn't feel as strong as I felt about, you know, working with the kids or whatever. So it's all those things. The bureaucracy (Overlap).
JOHN MERROW
Did you have any trouble finding teachers who wanted to be with you?
IRASEMA SALCIDO
Not at all. Because you know, my God, this is an opportunity to teach teachers as professionals. They're making the decisions about curriculum, they making the decisions about what's best for the kids. You don't get that at the school system. You are told what curriculum to use. You are told, no, don't teach chemistry before biology. You know you have to have English nine, ten, and eleven, regardless. And, and an opportunity ... anyone would want to have an opportunity where they're treated like professionals, where they are gonna be making the decisions on, you know, how to best teach kids.
JEANNE ALLEN
Irasema, can I ask you a question? This is JEANNE Allen.
IRASEMA SALCIDO
Hi JEANNE. How you doing?
JEANNE ALLEN
Good. Can you address what I think is partly controversial in the charter movement today, and that is those non measurable non objective measures, if you will, of students' success? I hear a lot from people like you about how great things are going, and then someone will say, oh, but you're in your first year. And yet, when I was at your opening ceremony a couple of weeks, there was an energy level there that you can't quite put your finger on, but it's not in a lot of places. Can you address that, or am I just kind of dreaming (Overlap) things like that?
IRASEMA SALCIDO
No, no. You're not dreaming. And at least for me, and I know your in DC the kind of population we're dealing with are the kind of population that desperately not only deserves, but must have a quality education. And they haven't. My 60 kids -- 58 quality for free lunch. Forty are from single parent homes. I don't know if many of you know Washington, DC, but southeast is the area that is very deprived area. And I have 31 of my kids from that area. So to me, to measure success is -- God I get this kid. I try so hard to say to them, this is your last chance. You deserve a better education.
JOHN MERROW
And these are kids who want to be there?
IRASEMA SALCIDO
Exactly.
JOHN MERROW
How many kids asked to be there? How many kids applied?
IRASEMA SALCIDO
All of my kids.
JOHN MERROW
No, but how many kids applied? You have 60 ninth graders.
IRASEMA SALCIDO
I have 80 kids applying. I had only spaces for 60 kids. They choose to come here and they had to sign a contract, them and their parents. And that's, that's what I was trying to answer Jeanne's question, is that from where they were to where they are now, for them to begin to see that they have to be students. By that I mean, they're here to learn, they're here to take advantage of what we have. And unfortunately a lot of the kids have the potential, the raw material is there but they have not been given that environment to develop their potential.
BRUCE FULLER
Irasema, this is Bruce Fuller out in Berkeley. Could you just talk a little bit about how you admit your students, and how you tried to select from this excess number of applicants?
IRASEMA SALCIDO
By law we have to do a lottery, so people pick numbers from a hat, their number.
JOHN MERROW
Bruce, I want to know, you're a researcher. What, what kinds of research based questions can you ask? I mean, attendance? Is that a, is that a variable to look at?
BRUCE FULLER
Well I think Jeanne's on to something John in the sense of, of charters do create enthusiasm. They do have a distinct ideology, a distinct philosophical about how to socialize kids. I think the research does raise questions about cleaning off the best and the brightest students. The DC law, like other state laws, does require a lottery. But in some states we do some cleaning off and we have a suit in New Jersey now where charter schools excluded a special ed student, that is a student with a disability. So I ... it depends a lot from state to state John, but I think there are, there are concerns about whether charters are working because they, they are becoming selective just, just like private schools.
JOE NATHAN
This is Joe and it's ironic that Bruce would make that statement. I wonder when Bruce is criticized magnet schools, of which there are thousands all over the United States, that do have admissions tests that have excluded special ed kids. I, I keep waiting for Bruce and other critics to say, you know, we really shouldn't have admissions tests of any kind. And I believe we shouldn't have admissions tests of any kind. But this whole thing about, you know, special ed kids not getting in allegedly. There are thousands of special ed parents all over the United States who've actually chosen to, to create charter schools or to have their kids in charter schools because they're so frustrated with the existing system. I mean, I want to compliment this lady. She's on the side of people like Rosa Parks, the civil rights legend who recently has applied to create a charter school. And she's on the side of history that says let's expand opportunity for low and moderate income families.
JOHN MERROW
Bruce, you have a response?
BRUCE FULLER
Well, I think it's hard, John, to generalize across, across these 1200 charters. I guess I would just emphasize that states play a big role here in terms of trying to ensure that there isn't discrimination in terms of who's accepted. But like voucher experiments, we are seeing this, this selectivity basis, this selection in some charters. I'm not saying it characterizes the whole movement, but I think it's an emerging problem.
JOHN MERROW
I want to jump in for a sec just to say, if you're just joining us, you're listening to the Merrow Report. We're talking about charter schools. And if you have a question for any or all of them, my guests, we have a toll number. Please call us, it's 877-844- 8557. That number toll free 877-844-8557. I thought I heard Lynn SCHNAIBERG of Education Week wanting to ...
LYNN SCHNAIBERG
Yeah. I was just gonna ask if could turn this back to Ms. Salcido for a minute and sort of address the question to her to get a little bit of information from somebody whose been out there on the frontline, so to speak. In terms of how you got the word out about your school to potential students and their parents. I guess one of the thing that comes up in this, in this whole movement is that this is choice. And to make the choice you've got to know that the school exists and know something about it. So how did you actually go about sort of marketing your school?
IRASEMA SALCIDO
Sure. Maybe one advantage I have or had, and I guess I still have, is that I was part of the school system. So principals, assistant principals, counselors know me and when I send letters to the middle schools informing them that I was gonna open this school, they passed information out. And a lot of kids knew what their choices were. And they obviously did not feel they wanted to go to their neighborhood's high school. And when I brought them to the orientation it was just incredible. The stats that we, I was saying you know this is a high school where, you know, we vision you taking AP courses in the 12th grade. You will be required to take a college course before you move on to the next, you know, and the kids would say, "Ms. Salcido, but you think I can do it?" I mean I have, I had a kid that asked me ... she didn't want to tell me that she was expecting a baby because she thought I was gonna reject her coming in. You know, kids, I told them, no matter who you are, what your academic record is, you, you know, this is an opportunity for you to be prepared to go to college, to the best college. And for that reason I constantly decided that they have to start in the ninth. So the word go out ... kids came. I mean I would get calls from parents saying, I don't know who, you know, what school my kids are talking about, but they are insistent that I have to go to the orientation so they can sign in for you school. And I asked them to sign a contract once they come to my orientation agreeing to staying until seven and get tutoring. Come to Saturday school and do the entrances that I require then.
JOHN MERROW
Okay, and are they doing these things?
IRASEMA SALCIDO
Yes, they are. It's like pulling teeth (Laughs).
JOHN MERROW
What is your attendance rate?
IRASEMA SALCIDO
Right now it's about 90 percent. You know, my kids are here daily and there are kids that would, would miss a lot of days.
JEANNE ALLEN
I'd like to jump in and maybe see if we can't explore. There's an assumption that's underlying. Some of the concerns have been raised elsewhere, here. I think there very valid and I think it's something on which reasonable people can disagree. But there seems to be an assumption that unless you are a traditional public school that's been on the same corner for 30 years, parents of lower income or lesser means simply won't know you exist. And I think it's dangerous for a lot of reasons. First of all, what most of the charter schools seem to be about, by their own surveys, by some objective research, is serving most kids who fall between the cracks. Would that that were so, most public school. My own parents moved into a lovely affluent area of New Jersey when I was just a baby because the public schools were new there. They knew something clearly that I think a lot of other people knew who were poor and were in Patterson, New Jersey. But Patterson, New Jersey couldn't buy into Allendale. Does that mean they shouldn't open in Allendale? No. What it does mean is that someone needs to focus more in Patterson, New Jersey. And I think that reaching out, sure Bruce and everybody who's concerned about this, you can, you can work 'till the cows come home to expose everybody and their brother to these options. And I think most of the people there taking these options are smart and they're involved, but they're not necessarily affluent.
IRASEMA SALCIDO
I'm sorry, if I might add something. To me, in the long run, my parents and my kids will tell me whether I'm serving that or not.
JOHN MERROW
Has anybody dropped out so far?
IRASEMA SALCIDO
Five kids transfer out. And the reason they transfer out is because they were tenth graders, but at the beginning they decided to come to my school although they knew they had to start up at ten ... at the ninth grade. And they just couldn't deal with it. They couldn't repeat the ninth grade. I had ten of those kids, five stayed. They, they told me they rather stay here because they know they were getting a better education that they could have (Inaudible) getting somewhere else at the tenth grade.
JOHN MERROW
Given that high school dropout ... general high school dropout is probably a lot higher than that.
IRASEMA SALCIDO
That's correct.
JOHN MERROW
Well you must be very proud in addition to being very tired.
IRASEMA SALCIDO
That's correct.
JOHN MERROW
And thank you very much for a giving us this grounding in reality. Appreciate your being with us.
IRASEMA SALCIDO
No, not a problem. Thank you very, very much for allowing me to be here.
JOHN MERROW
We have a call from, from Jude in Syracuse with a question I think about that subject of creaming. Jude are you with us? I guess we don't have a call from Jude in Syracuse. The technology has just failed us. The charter, the length of her charter, 15 years, is that typical? That seems longer than story of the charter schools I've been in.
JEANNE ALLEN
It's not typical John. There's a couple of states that have more than five years, Arizona being one of them. There was a real concern in DC when the law was being drafted that these folks couldn't get buildings, couldn't get collateral, couldn't get banks to take a look at them unless they had a longer tenure. So I think the way to look at it is those folks aren't safe, and for 15 years, regardless of what they do. There's still some pretty strict monitoring and accountability in place. So I think it could get shut down anytime for failing to meet their charter. But in terms of their long, their longevity, the 15 years sends a signal to people, I think, that they're okay to enter into a bargain with, if you will.
JOHN MERROW
So that's a better law to say give them 15 years. I mean I've heard ... most charters I've heard of have been I think five years.
JEANNE ALLEN
I don't think the 15 years is bad as long as there is clear delineation that what you must do in your charter, but it's based on performance.
JOE NATHAN
This lady mentioned that they have, every five years, an audit of what's going on. So, I don't think it's just the 15 year contract with no oversight until 15 years are up. I think that there is a review after five years. And we should note that there have been some charters that have been closed down, as they should have been, because they have not performed,as their advocates hoped.
JOHN MERROW
And as charter school proponents are like often, like to say, public schools have a perpetual contract. I think we have Jude on the line in Syracuse. Let's try again. Hello?
JUDE
Hello.
JOHN MERROW
How are you? What was your question for this group?
JUDE
Well, my question is about this issue of admissions and the way people come to associate through charters. And I guess that's two premises. One is that it seems to be we already have existing school choice, which is one of the problems of dialogue around charters. And two, we have lotteries built in most states, I believe just about every state law. So my question is directed mostly to Bruce Fuller, about how we identify this issue of creaming and selectivity. And the question directly is do the problems with charters reflect problems with the existing, the entire public system?
BRUCE FULLER
Well clearly, in our society we have radical segregation and housing. And as long as parents were tied to their neighborhood schools there was sort of this inadvertent, cleaning that was going on in upper middle class suburbs and wealthy areas. So I'm not at all arguing that this sort of selection doesn't already occur in the public system. I think my point is that with big expense experiments like charters or vouchers, we've got to try to tackle this, this self selection issue more effectively. Lynn Schnaiberg's question, I think, went to the point directly, which is how do we saturate these markets, quote unquote, with information and make sure that, that all parents can operate with the rationality and, and the choice that JEANNE was trying to argue for. We do have work like in Montgomery County, Jeff Henning's work, just north of DC, which showed that only about half of all Latino parents knew about the magnet schools in Montgomery County, and about 80 percent of the white parents knew about them. So that's not to infer that Latino parents are less rational or less committed to their kids' education. It just means that in markets, certain populations and certain groups are not as good a shoppers as affluent parents are.
JEANNE ALLEN
Well I'll tell you one thing that's certain, is there are a couple, Joe might know of more, but I certainly know of some school districts in Colorado, some in California, but most, mostly not ... school districts don't tend to help promote those options. And if public schools themselves would stop seeing charter schools as such a threat, to clearly a monopoly and start helping promote these options. I mean I'm just appalled at some of the shenanigans that traditional public school officials, not all, have said there's isolated cases where they're real helping charters. They're the ones who should be saying, hey, you know what? There are options here. You don't just simply have to come here 'cause you live in our district. There's a charter. There's a magnet. There's this, there's that. That's the kind of healthy market, if you will, although I hate that term 'cause it's not like we have unbridled freedom and, and no one's guiding anyone. There is a public accountability, but I think that's the kind of healthy atmosphere that would breed and bring some of these Latinos and, and other disadvantaged minorities in.
JOHN MERROW
Lynn, I'm curious. What's your reaction to what Jeanne's saying? Do you find, as a reporter, that, that public school officials are being sort of dragged kicking and screaming into charter schools?
LYNN SCHNAIBERG
I think it's really all over the map. I think that's really the only fairest answer I can give in terms of ... there are certainly examples you can point to on either end of the spectrum, both those that really have collaborated and some of that, I guess, comes down to some of the structure of the charter law in that state and whose overseeing whom and what the sort of approval process is for that school. But some of have been very supportive of, of charter schools and some have been very threatened by them in terms of seeing them as direct competition, which I would say, you know, a lot of charter school proponents say is one of the benefits of charter schools is that notion of competition and being able to you know, spark some change that otherwise might not happen.
JOHN MERROW
There's a little town in your state, Joe, LaSur where the charter school is seen as a way of keeping the town alive economically, bringing in people, providing that variety and choice that JEANNE was talking about. Joe, you wanted to say something?
JOE NATHAN
I could talk briefly about that. It's actually just moved from LaSur to Henderson. And it's moved because a town eight miles away said we'd really love to have this school here and we're willing to work with you to create a really high quality program. And this is a school that's a worker's co-op. It's owned, literally, by the teachers. It's improved student achievement in various areas according to outside evaluators. And, equally important, it's helped to stimulate changes in the existing school. They have an advising system at the, at the charter school. The neighborhood high school has started to pick up on that. They have public presentations every six weeks. The neighborhood high school has started to pick up on that.
JOHN MERROW
Joe, why do you say equally important it stimulated change in the existing system? Why is that equally important?
JOE NATHAN
The fundamental purposes of the charter movement as I see it, you know, in the writing that I've done in books and various places is in Des Moines ... in the Iowa legislature this morning, the fundamental purpose is to expand opportunity, especially for low and moderate and low income families who currently don't have much. And secondly, to help stimulate improvement in the larger education system.
JOHN MERROW
What about the oft made charge that some of the people who are supporting charter schools really want to just break up the monopoly of public schools? That there's a real hostility to public education with charter people?
JOE NATHAN
You know, John, it's really interesting. This idea brings together a variety of people, as other wonderful ideas have brought together. We think about Head Start. People on the left thought Head Start because it expanded opportunity. People on the right said it was a good idea because it was a good investment. It makes sense to invest in children early. So I'm not all concerned about whether there are people who agree or disagree, who disagree on other issues. Recently there was a national charter school conference in Colorado at which the secretary of education, a Democrat spoke, and was very strong about his support for charters. He was introduced by the Republican governor of Colorado, who was a strong advocate of charter schools. And the Republican governor was introduced by a Democratic legislature, who was also supportive of charter schools. So I think one of the things that we've seen around the country is that people can disagree about a lot of things, but they agree that the charter movement really makes sense in many, many places if it's done carefully.
JEANNE ALLEN
And I'll tell you, I would just add to that or maybe augment that Joe. I think the vast majority as people in this country don't tend to look at it through either set of glasses. Most people in this country, as we know from great research done by Public Agenda Foundation and other groups, are simply frustrated that oftentimes they are made to have to accept traditional approaches, traditional mores, traditional bureaucracy. And they are embracing the changes that are being brought about by charter schools in the districts and by the existing ... through the eyes of parents.
JOHN MERROW
It occurs to me that there's a real hype going on here and this is, this is in fact not a national movement at all, even though there are charter laws in 35 states. I mean, most of the charter schools are in three states. We're talking about Arizona, California and Michigan.
JEANNE ALLEN
We can fix that. We can expand the loss (Laughs).
JOHN MERROW
I understand that. But you guys, you two in particular, are talking as if, well this is sweeping the country. It's not sweeping the country. It's sweeping three states. Big deal.
JEANNE ALLEN
Sure it is. If you consider the enormous weight and opposition to what is considered a very modest idea, as Joe just described, and I think everyone on this call would agree, that it's embraced by people who have a variety of dimensions. It takes a heck of a lot to get anything through a legislature. This is sea change in American education. This isn't a blip on the screen. It might only be in 1200 schools, but it represents ...
JOHN MERROW
And, and most of the schools are in three states.
BRUCE FULLER
John, I think there's also a downside of this love-fest that's going on around charter schools. It's, it's, as Clinton comments at the top of the report pointed out, this is the new centrist version of school reform, but it ... we've been studying re-chartering processes here in California, and oftentimes this politics filters down to local school boards who almost automatically re-charter schools. We studied one school in south Oakland where there was not one piece of student achievement evidence presented. And the school was re-chartered with unanimous vote.
JOHN MERROW
Just like the way public schools are kept open.
JEANNE ALLEN
How come we never hear the words "hype" and "love-fest" when it comes to traditional public school system?
JOHN MERROW
JEANNE, I just said that. I just said that.
JEANNE ALLEN
No, I want to throw this out. Hype and love-fest are words that I would describe what the people, the media pundits in this country have had with traditional public education. We haven't questioned public education until recently, for almost a hundred years. Particularly the last 25 years. We've act as if they can do no wrong. I think by introducing an idea and saying that it's good and talking about the accomplishments is beneficial for kids, it's not hype.
JOHN MERROW
JEANNE, first of all, that's bad history. Americans have traditionally condemned and heavily criticized their public schools almost from the beginning, for over a hundred years.
JEANNE ALLEN
We should compare research John.
JOHN MERROW
I believe Kate from Manhattan has a question.
KATE
Hi. Well it seems to me that the charter school idea makes this assumption that the public school infrastructure or the bureaucracy is what prevents the school from being efficient or effective. But at the same time, doesn't that infrastructure offer some kind of support in terms of managing the school and purchasing services like on a larger scale? I mean, do you lose anything when you break away from that larger network?
JOE NATHAN
It's really interesting you should ask that. This is Joe, and the chancellor of New York City asked me to come to New York City, which is it sounds like where you're calling from, within the last two weeks. And literally hundreds of parents and teachers came to the meeting. John might want to call it hype, but they came and nobody forced them to come. Many of them were veteran public school teachers who said just what the principal said earlier in the broadcast, that they're deeply frustrated. Some of the finest charter public schools in the United States are existing schools that converted. One of the most famous is a Vaughn Street charter school in inner city LA, which was on national television because it's taken 14 months for them to purchase computers through the large bureaucracy of the system. This morning I met with more than a hundred teachers and state legislatures in Iowa. And a number of those teachers said even some of the smallest districts in the country, it can take months and months to get orders. Now, through the charter process at Vaughn Street and a number of the other charter schools, people can go right out to various places and say we want to purchase, for example, computers as they've done at, at Vaughn Street and we pay cash and we're gonna do this in the next 30 days.
JOHN MERROW
So, you're answer to Kate's question, does the bureaucracy ever help, is no?
JOE NATHAN
My answer is that sometimes the bureaucracy can help. Sometimes it can be of assistance. But one of the ways to get the bureaucracy to be more responsive is to provide some options to it. And that, in fact what happened in Los Angeles, after this story was widely publicized, John might want to refer to it as hype, but after it was widely publicized, it had taken 14 months for people to get their computers through the LA unified district, the district changed its purchasing processes. And I think that's good.
BRUCE FULLER
Also John, I think we're seeing that there's sort of a life cycle to these charters. And in year one or two they're sort of feisty and they're sort of like 13 year olds at home. They're resisting the downtown bureaucracy. But over time the charters that seem to survive and thrive reestablish these interdependencies with the district. They tap back into categorical aid money like greedy money, title one money, bilingual money. They, in some places, enter back into the personnel system operated by the district, so that their teachers can maintain benefits and, and get their paychecks on a regular basis. So even though the pundits we're talking about autonomy and breaking free of the public school monopoly, a lot of the successful schools have actually, in a very craftful and I think interesting way, plugged back in to the public system.
LYNN SCHNAIBERG
I was gonna ... John if I could (Overlap) for just one second. I think, I'm trying to be on point to the, the caller's question, I think one thing that's interesting is, and I don't know, I'll leave to others to judge whether this is, you know, recreating a bureaucracy or not. But a lot of charter schools for a variety of reasons, either for purchasing or for providing or rather buying other services that are just not practical or affordable for them to do on their own, have created, you know, collaborative networks among one another. So, in a sense, you have, you know, a network of charter schools in a given area contacting together to buy supplies so that they can get a better price, you know, akin to what a school district is. There is some of that going on. So I just wanted to let people know that that was happening.
JOHN MERROW
So there are some ... Bruce said successful schools have figured out a way to get what they need out of the bureaucracy rather than declaring the bureaucracy the enemy.
LYNN SCHNAIBERG
Well some districts have become chartered as whole districts as well.
JOHN MERROW
You used the term "successful" Bruce. What does that mean, "successful?"
BRUCE FULLER
Good question. I think it means two or three different things. One it means raising test scores and kids to the bottom line achievement level. The evidence on that is, is quite mixed, and it turns out to be a very sticky research question as charters attract kids from more motivated or households and parents that are more committed to their kids' education. But also I think it's these less measurable factors that JEANNE mentioned earlier, this enthusiasm, the strong socialization process. You know, we have a charter south of Oakland that's located in a mosque. And there's an Arabic form of socialization. We have charters in Lansing, Michigan where black nationalist curriculums sort of guide the ideology of the place. And I think in terms of rebuilding and enriching our communities locally, this sort of socialization agenda is very important. And then thirdly, as we've already mentioned ...
JOHN MERROW
I'm sorry. What are you suggesting there? That these schools are, become political vehicles? I'm not quite sure what you're suggesting?
BRUCE FULLER
Well, I think all schools are dedicated to trying to advance the, the culture and the social values held by parents. I think the common school ideals from the 19th century tried to integrate a variety of diverse social values and ideals held by parents. Charters are a little bit more tribal, if you will, that is there are smaller clusters of parents oftentimes linked to a church or linked to a particular form of socialization. I'm not saying that's necessarily negative. I'm saying it does need to some balkanization around how we're raising our kid.
JEANNE ALLEN
You know, I'm not sure that because many charter schools happen to find facilities only in churches that we can say a lot are tied to churches. And maybe you've got research, Bruce, I'd like to see that. But I guess when you talk about success, I'm wondering whether not we should be talking about, I mean, conventional matters across the board, how we measure success. I mean there's a debate going on about standards in this country. One of the unions loves them. The other one seems to hate them. Not all states, as we know, from John's intro to this program, are testing kids the way perhaps testing was intended to be. Not all parents have always chosen schools depending on the same measures we might come back to. I guess that brings us back to choice. The bottom line is are children in charter schools there when they might not have been in school before? And are they becoming better informed, better educated, better tied in their community, regardless of some of these side issues and some of these kind of negative casual, but not very casual references to segregation or kind of boutique schools really don't apply, if you look at most. Joe, doesn't your research show there's more disabled children, more integrated schools than not?
JOE NATHAN
Well as several, as several people have said it varies from state to state. In this and a number of other states, the charter school is much ... the students are much more likely to be low income than the average student in the state. They're much more likely to come from (Inaudible) English speaking families. They're much more likely to be, kids of color. They're much more likely to be kids who have special needs. And that varies from state to state. I think that when John talks about is this mostly hype it's important to remember that this is a young movement. This is a movement that has ... that others have pointed out, has faced intense opposition from the most powerful education groups in the United States. Whereas it really says, we're going to give parents and teachers a chance to create the public schools that they think makes sense. And that is enormously threatening to unions, to school boards, to administrators. John says, well, you know, most of the charter schools are in three states. And that's certainly true. But John, the number of charter schools has jumped from 20 to 40, and if you go around the country you'll see that virtually every state that started off with a very limited charter law has expanded. Texas, Massachusetts, California. So, I think, I remember at one point you saying that the role of a journalist was to walk around the battlefield after the,after the battle has ended and shoot the survivors. I think it's possible to be cynical about this. But the reality is that thousands of teachers all over the United States, have come into this. And some of them are award winning teachers, like the Arizona state teacher of the year, who is deeply frustrated. And one of the last point here, one of the fundamental problems we've come ... got over the next decade is to attract literally millions of people into education and to retain excellent folks. And one of the things that's most encouraging to me, and I suppose one could be cynical about, one of the things that's most encouraging to me is that many people, like the first person on this broadcast though, the woman in Washington, DC, are veteran teachers who have said, "we think this is a better way to do public education."
JOHN MERROW
Well I understand that I've ... that you and Jeanne, although your politics are slightly different, are both true believers and you're offended by my even asking ...
JOE NATHAN
No, I'm not offended by your asking. I'm not offended in the least bit. (Overlap) I think it's important to say that there are good things happening and one can put it down but there are thousands of people who have say our kids are doing better, and thousands of teachers who say I'd rather work this way than the old way.
JOHN MERROW
And that Joe and I, I am raising the question of Arizona in particular, the state superintendent there and other people as well, were quite candid about ... they really wanted the vouchers. They couldn't get vouchers, which essentially would have dismantled public education as they ... in their plan. So they settled for charter schools. Now, that raises some questions about the politics of the charter movement, not about the idealism and willingness to work harder by these teachers you're talking about, but rather that larger political issue. I wonder, Lynn, do you have, you know, you're a veteran reporter for Education Week, do you have a sense of this movement to what extent it's hope and what it's hype?
LYNN SCHNAIBERG
Well (Laughs) that's a hard question. I think that's one that I'll probably dodge for the time being. But I will point one thing, which has to do with the politics that you just mentioned. It occurred to me that actually in Ms. Salcido is running, the Cesar Chavez Public Policy Charter High School in DC, there was an interesting just to indicate some of the politics on this, there was a news release that went out this fall that was doing a fundraising breakfast for that school. And, the top of the news release had the logos of two Washington think tanks, if you will. One is Urban Institute, one was the Heritage Foundation. Some pretty different groups there in terms of what their mission.
JOHN MERROW
The Heritage Foundation being a very, very conservative political group.
LYNN SCHNAIBERG
Fair to say that they would certainly favor vouchers as a means of school choice, of private school vouchers. The Urban Institute I guess being pegged as the more liberal, for lack of a better and more descriptive word. This sort of indicates in a sense how much this does cross political lines. But then also some of the schism that some folks have brought up within the movement of those who see charter schools as a stepping stone toward vouchers and some who see that as an alternative to vouchers.
JOHN MERROW
Does that concern you, Joe, when you look ... I mean, you're not a right wing-er?
JOE NATHAN
(Laughs) No, and I'm one of the vouchers. And many of the people who have proposed charter laws around the United States are also opponents of vouchers.
JOHN MERROW
But does it concern you about the, the charter school ... that idea that charter school might be a stalking course for voucher?
JOE NATHAN
John, what I tried to say earlier was that some of the best ideas in the United States have brought together people who vigorously disagree about other things. JEANNE and I disagree, for example, I believe, about vouchers. The President of the United States does not like the idea of vouchers, he likes charters.
JEANNE ALLEN
You know it reminds me, I was in a room not too long ago in South Carolina with the representatives of 20 different teacher, non-union organizations, 20 different states. And there were 20 different views and opinions about all these issues. There were some who hate state standards and believed only local standards. Guess which state that is? There were some who liked charter, some hated charter. Some who liked voucher, some who didn't. There was such depth interest, disagreement, and they got along together because they believed in one thing. That they should be the ones controlling their destiny. Now, you don't walk away from a room like that and say, what's the motive? Where are they coming from? Are they right, are they left? The idea is they are brought together 'cause they teach.
JOHN MERROW
Let's take a call. We have John from New York.
JOHN
Hi John, great program. I have a question for your guests. I'm wondering, the countries that routinely outscore us in other parts of the world, European countries, Japan, etc., etc., are charter schools in their formula for success or what?
JOE NATHAN
Interesting question. The book I wrote about charter schools which is actually called charter schools, it's just been translated into Japanese and a number of people from Japan have been to see charter schools and other people interested in charters around the United States. Japan actually does have, although it's not well known a very strong form of school choice at the high school level. Many of the European countries have very explicit, and I think I'd argue not very just, not very equitable, systems of school choice. So there are a number of other countries that are outperforming us. I also think, frankly, that, that we have to, in some respects, design and improve our education based on what, what the world is like in the United States. I mean, some of the other countries have national standards. You can go to a school in certain sections of France, for example, and be on exactly the same page exactly the same day.
JOHN MERROW
That's a national curriculum, not national standards.
JOE NATHAN
Thank you.
BRUCE FULLER
England, you know, post Maggie Thatcher, had one of the most liberal pro-choice regimes, and still does. And we have not seen a substantial rise in achievement among British kid. And in fact some increasing inequity in both Scotland and England.
JEANNE ALLEN
But I think the ...
JOHN MERROW
Most of the countries that outperform us, in fact have had national standards.
JEANNE ALLEN
I think the OECD report recently in the organization and economic cooperation development found however, that we are beginning to fall behind other countries in terms of our graduation right. And that England, among others, have increased dramatically.
JOHN MERROW
Do you guys out there think that charter schools are the most hopeful education reform? I mean you have to put your money on something, national standards. Do charter schools really represent that great a hope for American education? Not just the kids who to go charter schools?
BRUCE FULLER
I do think, John, in the next ten years we're gonna see this interesting, theatrical play open up between the strong statewide accountability efforts by George W. Bush in Texas, South Carolina, the mayoral takeovers of schools. That is we're seeing recentralization in some states and simultaneously we're seeing this radical decentralization along charter lines.
JOHN MERROW
Are they mutually exclusive?
BRUCE FULLER
Well, Maggie Thatcher didn't think they were. But I think, as the two strategies play out, we're gonna see some, some very sharp conflicts. Charter advocates in California, for example, were earlier arguing they should be exempt from statewide testing of kids. And the legislature said no. If charter's gonna be as accountable as public school, or probably more accountable, they should participate in a statewide testing program. So we are gonna see these conflicts, but these are two distinct strategies of school reform.
JOHN MERROW
Joe and JEANNE? Is that ... would you want to exempt charter schools from, from statewide (Inaudible)?
JEANNE ALLEN
I would just add that I think that ...
JOHN MERROW
It's a yes or no question. Would you or not?
JEANNE ALLEN
No, no absolutely not.
JOHN MERROW
They have to take the same ...
JEANNE ALLEN
Absolutely, yeah, absolutely.
JOHN MERROW
And Joe, same standards?
JOE NATHAN
You asked us if we think it's the number one thing.
JEANNE ALLEN
That's what I was gonna answer.
JOE NATHAN
It falls into the category of expansion of opportunity, like giving women the right to vote, making sure that all people, not just all men, not just white males who own property, it's not gonna solve all the problems. I think it's a step forward and I think it's an important step forward. But, are senator's involved in trying to reform dramatically teacher training programs. We're battling the MNC2A, which has highly inappropriate standards it's trying to place on every high school in the United States. I think there are a lot of battles to be fought. I think the charter movement is an important expansion of opportunity. But certainly nothing is a panacea.
JEANNE ALLEN
And what I would, what I would say, John, about that question is that I think charters, and I think Bruce is right to mention the increasing stabs at accountability that mayors and different cities are taking. Charters are under an accountability umbrella. They don't stand out, they're alone. They're one of several tools that I think states and educators and urban groups and civic groups are using. But I think what you're gonna see is an increasingly complicated field of reform efforts that sounds similar and that some people like and some people don't like but are playing a role.
JOHN MERROW
How about a prediction now? Because Bruce is suggesting there's a, there's a kind of collision course here mayors wanting to take charge of their schools. They may not be in favor of radical decentralization. Rudy Guiliani, Rudy Crew, they're not even favor of charter schools generally. And other cities saying I want to take charge.
BRUCE FULLER
I think there's also a collateral risk, John, that if charter's grow too rapidly and the shine wears off this novel innovation, we found that test scores are not going up inside charters. Then charters may go the way of magnet schools and alternative schools in the '60's. And I think that's risky 'cause I think charters do, do often a lot of parents some new hopes and some possibilities.
JOHN MERROW
Do you think charter school supporters are claiming too much, too soon?
BRUCE FULLER
I think the ... I think we have movement leaders including around the table today. And I think we've got, as Joe mentioned, we have a lot of eager and frustrated parents on the ground. I think those are two different worlds. But I think, I think the policy wonks may be promising too much.
JOHN MERROW
Joe?
JOE NATHAN
I don't think that this is the sole solution. And I guess I'd say one of the most exciting things that I'm saying is that charter schools and other innovative public schools around the country are coming together and raising really important questions about how do we assess academic achievement? I mentioned the meeting just two weeks ago in New York City. A variety of people came together and said what are the most appropriate ways to assess student achievement? I think that there are some fine things on in existing public school, some fine things going on (Overlap).
JOHN MERROW
So you're like the competition. Lynn SCHNAIBERG, the last word, I haven't heard enough from you. The last quick word.
LYNN SCHNAIBERG
Quick word, hope or hype. I guess one thing you would say is you can't deny there's a lot of exciting about there in terms of charter schools, parents, educators alike, communities on the whole. And, whether they'll hope or hype or something in between, I guess the proof will be in the pudding in the years to come when we see the results and see how much they actually do address the larger goal that Joe mentioned early in the broadcast about impacting school districts across the country, not just being boutique and being innovation within their own selves.
JOHN MERROW
One thing I guess we probably all would agree on is that the name charter school doesn't tell you enough. You have to make sure you read the fine print. And we do have to leave it there. I would like to thank my guests. Lynn SCHNAIBERG, who is the staff writer covering charter schools for Education Week. And she's got a lot to cover for a long time. JEANNE Allen, president of the Center for Education Reform. Bruce Fuller, associate professor of Public Policy at CAL and the author of "Charter Schools and the Paradox of Radical Decentralization." And Joe Nathan, the director of the Center for School Change and the author of again another book, "Charter Schools Creating Hope and Opportunity for American Education." I'd like to thank all of you for, for being with me today. I'm John Merrow, this is the Merrow Report. Thanks.
JOHN MERROW
The Merrow Report is a production of Learning Matters Incorporated in association with WBUR Boston and Education Week, the national independent newspaper of American education. Special thanks to Virginia Edwards, Steve Drummond and the staff at Education Week. Funding for this series is provided by the Spencer Foundation. Our program is produced by Alexis Kessler with help from Sheila Pagan. Sound recording by ABC Studios and NPR. To order a cassette of this program call toll free 1-877-263- 7769. That number again 1-877-263-7769. For information about the Merrow Report visit our website, www.pbs.org/merrow. That's M-E-R-R-O-W. E-mail your comments to merrow@pbs.org. I'm John Merrow, thanks for listening. This is NPR National Public Radio.
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